Posts by Justitia Themis

88

Your Thoughts, Please (Seriously)...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

on occasion, dear ones post questions on the board that have a "legal" undertone.

sometimes those questions are just trying to get a sense of what questions such one should ask (perhaps of an attorney), sometimes they have to do with very ordinary events, and sometimes they really do require in-depth legal assistance/analysis.

Justitia Themis

My definition was NOT meant to be an exhaustive definition of the practice of law; I was merely trying to demonstrate that it requires SOME action beyond the mere reporting of case law. While each state has a different definition, they all agree to the basics and disagree around the edges. Here is a quote about what DOES constitute legal advice in Texas as posted by the Clarinetist, though at the document states, it is not an exhaustive definition and the courts can apply the doctrine it wishes.

NOTICE THE VERBS...

What is Legal Advice?

Court users are asking for legal advice when they

ask whether or not they should proceed in a certain fashion. Telling a member of the public what to do rather than how to do it may be

giving legal advice.

Legal advice is a written or oral statement that:

Interprets some aspect of the law, court rules, or court procedures;

Recommends a specific course of conduct a person should take in an actual or potential

legal proceeding; or

Applies the law to the individual person ’ s specific factual circumstances

88

Your Thoughts, Please (Seriously)...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

on occasion, dear ones post questions on the board that have a "legal" undertone.

sometimes those questions are just trying to get a sense of what questions such one should ask (perhaps of an attorney), sometimes they have to do with very ordinary events, and sometimes they really do require in-depth legal assistance/analysis.

Justitia Themis

The court ruled that the friend committed the unauthorized practice of law by helping the woman. They upheld the will, but struck the provision that gave the woman a few thousand dollars. Most lawyers agree that this case was decided wrongly, and it is an outlier, but it does show that what may appear to be clear by statute may turn our quite differently when the statute is applied by the courts.

It does, dear JT (peace to you!); however, I can see why the court decided as it did: usually, those who help prepare wills/trusts can't benefit from them. I realize that it seems a small amount but apparently the court took the law to mean ANY benefit. Which interpretation can have merit. Case could've gone either way.

Ours is a minority state that allows "interested takers," so this case's outcome is considered quite shocking. The Court clearly wanted to send a message concerning the "unauthorized practice of law."

88

Your Thoughts, Please (Seriously)...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

on occasion, dear ones post questions on the board that have a "legal" undertone.

sometimes those questions are just trying to get a sense of what questions such one should ask (perhaps of an attorney), sometimes they have to do with very ordinary events, and sometimes they really do require in-depth legal assistance/analysis.

Justitia Themis

No - no - no, Justicia. I did not mean YOU were the fraudulent party.

I meant that the person (non-lawyer) who charged the old lady 2,000 to make a will for her was the fraudulent party: And that was because she was pretending to act as a lawyer. And got money for it.

My apologies James. I misunderstood your post, and I was trying to neutrally present facts so as to not get torched on this thread!!

Although we did have one lawyer who got banned for about 8 weeks because he kept insisting that opera star Pavarotti did not deserve to own a Ferrari, and deserved to die because he was fat.

Most important, practical, and funny comment on this thread yet.

AGuest...I can see your point, but the lengths to which you are carrying this...well...it seems a bit extreme to me. Is it really worth all that negative energy? All the time you have spent posting these tomes...you will never get back. Is she worth it? Even IF she is everything you say (and I don't know that I agree completely), it is worth the time? There's a beautiful world out there...away from the computer...it longs for your presence...

88

Your Thoughts, Please (Seriously)...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

on occasion, dear ones post questions on the board that have a "legal" undertone.

sometimes those questions are just trying to get a sense of what questions such one should ask (perhaps of an attorney), sometimes they have to do with very ordinary events, and sometimes they really do require in-depth legal assistance/analysis.

Justitia Themis

The above would be the fraudulent act of attempting to practice law without actually being a lawyer...outside the law, of course - and not real legal advice

Wrong again. Practicing law is a verbal phrase indicating action, namely, trying to interpret what the courts might do and rendering an opinion. I clearly identified myself as a student and merely wrote a report of what the court already did. ; )

It is, of course, "not real legal advice" because there is no advice at all my post, legal or otherwise. ...double wink.

As far as what qualifies as legal advice on this DB, I'll defer to your erudite legal opinion as stated above. ...triple wink.

88

Your Thoughts, Please (Seriously)...

by AGuest in

jw
friends

may you all have peace!.

on occasion, dear ones post questions on the board that have a "legal" undertone.

sometimes those questions are just trying to get a sense of what questions such one should ask (perhaps of an attorney), sometimes they have to do with very ordinary events, and sometimes they really do require in-depth legal assistance/analysis.

Justitia Themis

I thought I once read that Legal Advice was just a friendly opinion unless the person giving the advice was both a practicing attorney in the venue at question, and also (importantly) unless that attorney had received compensation and had agreed to represent the person given the advice.

Not necessarily. In my Tranmission of Wealth (wills/trusts) class that I just finished, we reviewed the sad case of a non-lawyer who was determined to have committed the unauthorized practice of law.

An elderly woman was rushed to the hospital, and her long-time friend, fellow church-member, and part-time care-giver accompanied her. The old woman felt she was dying and asked her friend to help her write a will because she was too ill even to write. The friend downloaded some pre-printed will form off the internet and wrote the woman's directions on them, after which the old woman signed the documents. In her will, the old woman gave her friend a small amount of money (like a couple thousand bucks).

The court ruled that the friend committed the unauthorized practice of law by helping the woman. They upheld the will, but struck the provision that gave the woman a few thousand dollars. Most lawyers agree that this case was decided wrongly, and it is an outlier, but it does show that what may appear to be clear by statute may turn our quite differently when the statute is applied by the courts.

However, in that case, there was some sort of a relationship beyond an anonymous forum.

As far as practicing attorneys, we get screwed on this stuff all the time, so the post is drop-dead wrong when it comes to licensed attorneys. In professional responsibility, we reviewed the case of an attorney at a party. Some guy he didn't know found out he was an attorney, and though people hate us, they love to ask us for free advice, and this guy presented a hypothetical to the attorney. The attorney said he would need more facts to answer, but that such cases usually proceeded along a certain line. The guy took action based on that comment, it didn't turn out well, and he sued the attorney for malpractice. Of course, only clients can sue for malpractice. The court determined that even that informal conversation was enough to create an attorney-client relationship, that the attorney should have realized that, that is was reasonable to expect that the guy would act on the attorneys advice, the attorney was guilty of malpractice and was liable for damages as a result of the outcome. This is happening more often, so state bars are recommending that attorneys send out you-are-not-my-client letters to people who merely call to make an appointment. As you might imagine, practicing attorneys are a bit gun shy about the subject.

...two examples of no good deed goes unpunished.

15

July 15, 2011 Watchtower--need a hard copy

by Justitia Themis in

jw
friends

is anyone willing to send me a copy of the july 15, 2011 watchtower?

i am writing a law article on the mature minor doctrine, and i want to include information from this magazine, especially regarding the picture of the young boy getting baptized.

i need a hard copy to document the picture.. if so, please pm me.. thanks,.

Justitia Themis

Thanks TD and life is too short.

15

July 15, 2011 Watchtower--need a hard copy

by Justitia Themis in

jw
friends

is anyone willing to send me a copy of the july 15, 2011 watchtower?

i am writing a law article on the mature minor doctrine, and i want to include information from this magazine, especially regarding the picture of the young boy getting baptized.

i need a hard copy to document the picture.. if so, please pm me.. thanks,.

Justitia Themis

I do.

46

Lawyers: Can a Jehovah's Witness sue the Watchtower Society for Civil Rights violations?

by Balaamsass in

i have been on boards and run businesses, and been reminded by more than one cpa and attorney to cross ts and dot i s regarding corporate requirements or we would become liable to lawsuits.. therefore, my questions to any attorneys and cpas, and the keen minds on this board, are the following;.

i have been reading old threads on this site about watchtower society irregularities regarding tax filings with state and federal agencies.

evidently, a number of filings for different years were identical (unlikely if not impossible) or missing.

Justitia Themis

The ACLU’s client is the Bill of Rights, not any particular person or group

True, to a certain extent. Again AGuest, you will see that these issues are hardly as black/white as you would like to make them. The ACLU does not technically represent; then intervene using the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure 24. It's highly unlikely that this technicality relieves their practicing attorneys of their ethical duties under their respective state bars. Otherwise, they could practice with full immunity from all the rules.

Here is quick explanation of the process: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intervention_(law)

Here is what that looks like in practical application: http://www.aclu.org/files/assets/2010-6-23-AmazonvLay-IntervenorsComplaint_0.pdf

Yes, if it's done appropriately. However, it is not always that extreme.

No. It is always that extreme. It it weren't that extreme, more law firms would do it rather than turn down paying clients. Lawyers don't get to use the "honor system." We must implement a REAL system.

On occasion my agency

What you have done or not done in your agency is not the least bit relevant because the ABA's/State Bar Associations' standards are higher.

And whatever happened with your friends case "beyond" the ACLU doesn't matter because it seems the ACLU didn't say that the case lacked merit, only that they had a conflict.

I'm not going to respond to your posts on this thread any longer. It's pretty clear you emotionally want/need your friends to be the "victims" of the UCLU and are not open to any other conclusion. If that's where you want to live, knock yourself out.

46

Lawyers: Can a Jehovah's Witness sue the Watchtower Society for Civil Rights violations?

by Balaamsass in

i have been on boards and run businesses, and been reminded by more than one cpa and attorney to cross ts and dot i s regarding corporate requirements or we would become liable to lawsuits.. therefore, my questions to any attorneys and cpas, and the keen minds on this board, are the following;.

i have been reading old threads on this site about watchtower society irregularities regarding tax filings with state and federal agencies.

evidently, a number of filings for different years were identical (unlikely if not impossible) or missing.

Justitia Themis

The question is/was: Can a Jehovah's Witness sue the Watchtower Society for Civil Rights violations?

Actually, the questions were much more complex than that; I'm posting them below for your easy review.

Interestingly, law students often--unsuccessfully--on their exams try to reframe the professors' questions from one they don't know to one they do know. As I said...it's a loser strategy because professors always see through it.

There's really no reason to get your panties in a wad and attack a whole industry of professionals just because one of them, or a few of them, addressed a few weaknesses in your arguments. Perhaps there's a reason you're "on your own"...whatever that means...

THEREFORE, my questions to any Attorneys and CPAs, and the keen minds on this board, are the following;

I have been reading old threads on this site about Watchtower Society irregularities regarding tax filings with State and Federal agencies. Evidently, a number of filings for different years were identical (unlikely if not impossible) or missing.

1. IF these agencies were to conclude tax fraud, or non reporting during an audit, would that hurt non-profit status and open WTBS to effective lawsuits? (Perhaps after a whistleblower suit?).

2 . Would a case like the Menlo Park Ca. Congregation “take-over” show Direct Governing body CONTROL therefore help pierce the corporate veil?

3 . If the veil has been pierced by bogus/non existent non-profit status filings, Could Civil Rights Cases against WTBS on behalf of Child Abuse Victims (Sexual, physical emotional and blood) prevail with a larger financial return? Adult members victimized by shunning, families who loose members by suicide after shunning? Ex and unbelieving parents without custody whose minor children die from lack of Blood? Have these had their constitional rights trampled? (Civil rights lawsuits against the Klu Klux Clan pierced the veil and hit them hard.)

4. With the corporate veil pierced, could a small businessperson who lost a large J.W. clientele, by QUESTIONING ever changing Watchtower theology (not moral turpitude), and was disfellowshipped sue Watchtower directly for Slander, Tortuous interference, and Civil rights violations?

5. What is the Federal Statute of limitations on Civil Rights violations?

46

Lawyers: Can a Jehovah's Witness sue the Watchtower Society for Civil Rights violations?

by Balaamsass in

i have been on boards and run businesses, and been reminded by more than one cpa and attorney to cross ts and dot i s regarding corporate requirements or we would become liable to lawsuits.. therefore, my questions to any attorneys and cpas, and the keen minds on this board, are the following;.

i have been reading old threads on this site about watchtower society irregularities regarding tax filings with state and federal agencies.

evidently, a number of filings for different years were identical (unlikely if not impossible) or missing.

Justitia Themis

I could be wrong but I was under the impression that, given the purpose of their existence, all they needed to do was create a screen/firewall/cone of silence (aka "chinese wall" but that term is offensive, even to me) and isolate whichever attorneys are working on each, and all files/information, from one another. In fact, the attorneys would even be working in the same department, as one group/set would be providing support for... while the others are pursuing a claim against.

You are wrong. Usually, they can represent (and use a firewall) if they have the signed, written consent of both parties. Do you really think the WTBTS is going to consent? And it is not a case of merely creating a firewall. They have to protect all information or be subject to a malpractice claim. That means the computer systems must be screened and locked, and even accidentally leaving a document in the lunchroom that one of the adverse attorneys might see can leave you open to suit. That's why the vast majority of law firms will NOT take these cases even if both parties want to consent. Just the act of firewalling is a pain in the patooty.

The other relevant issue is how adverse are both parties, or how adverse might they end up. In your Fair Housing example, employment discrimination and landlord-tenant are not even relatively close forms of law, so yes, something like that would be much more workable.

As you can see AGuest, it's not as clear cut as you thought, and impugning bad motives to the agency was likely a tad bit harsh. I really don't think your friends are "victims." The agency had very real and, I think, compelling reasons for their actions. That should come as good news to your friends.

They most certainly did have a conflict-of-interest issue because they could use the privileged information they obtained in one case against them in the other case.

Ummmmmm, no. In fact, they CAN'T. That is the purpose of a "screen/firewall/ethical wall," dear one. In vary many industries, including law and government

I should have been more clear. Of course they can't purposefully use it. I meant they might accidentally see that information and use it, e.g. my lunchroom hypothetical. Even if they don't intend to use it, if it's in their brain, they can't wipe it out, and it will affect their decision-making. Hence the need for signed, written consent to relieve the firm of liability should the inevitable accident happens.

Lastly, why are you "on your own?" What does that mean?